I think the ideas he has for how to run the government are downright disasterous, and therefore I must oppose him. But give the man his due: he gave a majestic address.

Obama dropped him from the campaign

If he were just a campaign advisor I’d agree with you. But he isn’t. He’s the pastor of a church Obama has attended for much of his adult life. He’s not just some guy he’s known for a couple years.

No matter what Obama says, it is very hard to explain away twenty years of membership in a church run by a racist nutcase — and his close association with that individual. Especially when Wright’s rhetoric diametrically goes against Obama’s own message of unity/hope and transcending differences. None of it seems to matter to his own supporters, but I don’t think it’s playing well with many independents.

With ties to the Hillary campaign, for example? Her only survival strategy is to maim him, so that he can’t win the general and everyone knows it. This is the tool that can do it, if she is wicked enough to use it — directly or through deniable assets.

That could swing superdelegates in a big way: if it becomes clear that everyone ties Obama to Wright’s rhetoric, he’s done. And the pull quote from this speech, if they want to do that, is Obama stating that he was their pastor for 20 years, married him, baptized their children… his own words, that, if you ignore everything around them.

But you can do that in a 30 second ad.

“‘God damn America!’

“So speaks a man Obama describes as ‘his pastor for twenty years; the man who married him; the man who baptized his children; a man he could never disown.

“‘If God is not on our side and against white people, we should kill him.’

“So says the man Obama’s pastor calls his teacher and inspiration.

“Obama: is he really for all Americans?”

I discussed this business with a few folks here, some black and some white. All of it bothers whites, I think, judging from their reaction. Blacks don’t seem to think most of it is a big deal — but the “kill God” bit shakes them when you show it to them.

Obama’s personal loyalty to Wright is commendable, because Wright can still destroy him. I thought it was a magnificient speech — even if I disagree with his policies, I thought he said many right and true things. I like the man, I think, whatever I believe about his pastor and church. I have to oppose him, because he is a font of terrible policies — but there is much to like about him.

That said, this church has the power to destroy him, if anyone will hit him hard enough with it. Obama, at this point, is at the mercy of his opponents. He will likely win, if they both prove to have mercy.

This is the tool that can do it, if she is wicked enough to use it — directly or through deniable assets.

Hillary certainly isn’t above it.

You know you’ve got to ask yourself an important question: Does Obama worship at his Church or does he just go through the motions for show? Because if he is just going for show in the Machavelien tradition of “The Prince” then all of the above is no biggy. However, if he worships for real how can he say he doesn’t agree with, support or otherwise associated his personal beliefs with a racist firebrand pastor after attending his services for approximately 20 years? Either this hateful man is the Christian or religious leader for Sen. Obama or he is simply putting on airs for effect and made a bad choice for his front. No matter how you slice it, this whole matter makes him look like another DC hypocrite.

Hagee is even worse than Wright, as far as I can tell, and McCain is embracing him even closer. Unless, of course, church scrutiny only applies to candidates of a certain umm, background (nudge, nudge).

Sorry, but that’s really weak — pitifully weak in fact. Obama didn’t just get an endorsement from some nut for politically expedient purposes like McCain did. Obama himself just said of Wright that “he has been like family to me.” By any standard Obama is way closer to Wright than McCain is to Hagee. Read Obama’s speech.

And I’m sure you wouldn’t think it was big deal if McCain was a long-time member of church that blamed blacks for all the problems in the U.S., and spouted ridiculous racist conspiracy theories from the pulpit. If you are going to criticize McCain for temporarily associating himself with Hagee, it’s complete hypocrisy to try to give Obama a pass for a far closer association with Wright.

Unless, of course, church scrutiny only applies to candidates of a certain umm, background (nudge, nudge).

If the situation were reversed and it was McCain trying to explain why he was a church member and a close associate of a racist nut pastor, his campaign would likely already be dead. So yes, there is something of a double standard.

When McCain goes to his church for twenty years, is married by him, and has his children baptised by him, then the relationship is equivalent. If Wright were just someone Obama wanted to placate for political purposes, Americans would understand — coalition politics require a certain number of allies you personally find distasteful, but have to treat gently.

Wright was — Obama’s own words — a key mentor in his life, and a shaper of his family and understanding of the world. Americans aren’t wrong to be alarmed by his rhetoric or his theology.

Obama seems to have a far better vision, which he spoke of well. Again, it was a magnificient speech. It will be read and closely considered, though, by almost no voters. That much of your complaint against the system is just: it is the case that few Americans are interested in political ideas in a serious way. Sixty million out of around three hundred million voted in 2004, the most hotly contested election in memory; and with the sides clearly drawn, many voters reported making up their minds only at the last minute, or in the final week.

I don’t quite know what to do about that, but I know I have never yet heard anything that sounded like a good solution. We’ve tried requiring civics education, which has made no dent; we’ve tried various schemes to regulate financing of campaigns, which has made things worse; we’ve tried endless debates, which doesn’t change the final figures on who was paying attention.

It is quite possible that the franchise needs to be restricted in some way; but it is not clear how to do it, in a way that would both survive Constitutional challenge and not disenfranchise at least some worthy voters.

But, on the word of Grim, Charles Murray at NRO’s Corner, and (even) one of the Powerliners, it must have been pretty good.

Here’s my new theory - people who criticize Obama for the sake of his pastor are morons who swallow uncritically everything that their religious leaders tell them, and cannot imagine an iota of disagreement with what they get fed from the pulpit.
On the plus side, no one is saying B Hussein Obama is a secret muslim anymore.

Now you are actually going to defend what Rev. Wright said? Unbelievable. Obama is repudiating Wright’s crazy racist rants but they’re just fine with you?

If I were a black man in America, I’d be pissed at the system that has shat so hard on me as well.

Really? Then you’d be a racist idiot just like Wright. In case you didn’t notice, a black man is the current front-runner to be the next President of the United States. Obama himself stands as a prime example that repudiates Wright’s nonsense. Wright is still stuck in the 1960s.

Here’s my new theory - people who criticize Obama for the sake of his pastor are morons who swallow uncritically everything that their religious leaders tell them, and cannot imagine an iota of disagreement with what they get fed from the pulpit.

Yeah, that’s real logical thinking. No one should form any opinions about anyone based on the people they associate with. And if they do they must be religious nuts. That’s convincing. I guess if a politician associates with known mobsters for 20 years we shouldn’t question that or suspect that he might be corrupt himself.

Do me a favour. Listen to the Wright quotes in context, and listen to all of Obama’s speech. Then get back to me. But if you’re going to tell me that no black man has any cause to complain or be angry, well, don’t bother. It won’t be worth the effort it takes you to type it.

There is no dispute, as a dramatic campaign ad from Hillary Rodham Clinton’s campaign suggests, that…

If you’re going to tell me that Obama’s candidacy is proof that there is no racism in the US

Of course not. That’s not what I said. I said it isn’t the 1960s anymore. Blacks (and other minorities) have legitimate complaints about racism, but Rev. Wright isn’t just expressing those. He’s part of the problem. You don’t fight racism by being a racist and promoting it to the next generation.

I’ve been there. I’ve travelled in the South and talked to the black people who fill up all the crappy service jobs.

Bad example. Tons of low end jobs are filled with recent Hispanic immigrants — probably more than are filled by blacks. Poor white people take low-end service jobs too. If you had mentioned police attitudes toward blacks, and sentencing disparities, you’d have a lot better examples. Certain groups occupying certain jobs isn’t necessarily due to racism.

But I’ve never heard him say anything that I haven’t heard elsewhere from more respectable black voices, or from black acquaintences of my own.

Then you hang around with alot of crazy black racists who believe the government invented AIDS, provides drugs to black people, that rich white people control everything, and all sorts of other conspiracy theories coupled with the victim mentality pushed by Rev. Wright. Again, I say look at what Obama himself said about the Wright rants in question.

As for Obama, I absolutely believe he can be a close friend of a pastor that he disagrees with on fundamental issues.

It’s possible yes. But is it also reasonable for people to wonder if a candidate shares the views of one of his long-time associates.

The minister of the church I attended when younger was a good family friend, the leader of my scout troop and an all-round great guy, even if he did spout all kinds of nonsense about some invisible man in the sky who loved me so much he wanted to torture me forever for having been created skeptical.

I’m an atheist too, and I know many good people who are devoutly religious. I’m still friends with them and I respect them, but I don’t attend their churches. If I did, wouldn’t you be asking me why?

Listen to the Wright quotes in context,

I did. And there’s no context that excuses them. He’s a racist lunatic spouting hatred and conspiracy theories. The fact that racism is real and still affects blacks in no way justifies the things he says. Even Obama recognizes that. He tries to balance it out by pointing out the good things Wright has done and advocated, but he repudiates Wright’s extreme statements.

the Death to Whitey Church.

JTM,

With all due respect, that’s a caricature. And if you to “go there,” well, it’s free country and (at least here) an open blog comment forum.

But trying to get beyond our caricatures is kinda what Obama was talking about.If we cling to our comfortable and treasured caricatures of the other guys as inherently scary and bad, bad, bad … we’re not gonna get anywhere.

Honestly, did you watch the speech? It’s a little bit pointless to discuss something that some of us haven’t seen, especially when it’s readily available (for free!) on the internet.

1) If I were a black man in America, I’d be filled with anger too, possibly to the point of irrationality. I’m a weaker person than Obama, it seems.

Well, we aren’t black so it’s hard to say how we’d think if we were. If I were I’m sure I’d be angry when I experienced racism. But I’d like to think that I wouldn’t let it consume my entire life to the point where I saw every obstacle as some sort of racist conspiracy to keep me down. And I’d also like to think that I’d recognize, that despite it’s legacy of racism, living in the U.S. offers me enormous opportunities that I should take advantage of, rather than whining, being a bitter America-hater, and becoming a racist myself.

2) Wright is a spiritual advisor, not a political advisor. He speaks with authority on religious matters. The political is his own crazy.

True, but he’s not just an advisor. He’s been a friend, confidant and mentor to Obama, someone who has been close to him for over twenty years. That’s why Obama’s denials about never hearing such rhetoric from him are difficult to believe.

I don’t think you are actually seeing the problem with the picture this whole thing represents. Obama has run a brilliant campaign and projected a positive message that even people like me, who would never vote for a left-winger, can admire. Despite what the Clinton campaign has repeatedly tried to suggest, he has not run as a black candidate. Even while disagreeing with him on the issues, I could respect him for coming almost out of nowhere, projecting a unifying, hopeful, inclusive message, and overcoming the Clinton machine to be the Democratic front-runner. For a politician, he seemed like a basically honest, sincere, decent guy — just misguided in his political views. If we have to have a Democrat in 2008, I was happy that it was probably going to be Obama and not Clinton.

But now we learn that he has willingly closely associated for over twenty-years with a racist, anti-American minister, who holds views similar to those of Louis Farrakhan. That makes me and many others question Obama’s character, integrity, judgment and beliefs. It makes us view him in a different light. Since I wasn’t voting for him anyway that doesn’t hurt him. But I guarantee you that this hurts Obama with uncommitted independents and even those Democrats wavering between he and Clinton. He may still pull it off, become the nominee and win the general election, but this changes how many people will view him — and in my opinion, rightly so.

With all due respect, that’s a caricature. And if you to “go there,” well, it’s free country and (at least here) an open blog comment forum.

Stephen,
Caricature? With all due respect I’ve listened to what the man said and the coverage has been extensive. Sorry, but the I hate Whity Church pretty much somes it up. However, you could make it a little more Accurate and call it the “I hate Whity and America Church”. The ole Rev. is pretty clear about what he thinks. If you wish to excuse it or label me as divisive, insensitive or whatever no problem I’m not offended.

But trying to get beyond our caricatures is kinda what Obama was talking about.If we cling to our comfortable and treasured caricatures of the other guys as inherently scary and bad, bad, bad … we’re not gonna get anywhere.

Sorry Sir but the above is prattle and an attempt to avoid the unpleasant. You see the Senator’s spiritual advisor seems to wallow in caricatures and the “other guy is bad” mentality. So, if moving beyond all of those comfortable caricature notions is what Obama is about then why does he keep such near, dear and repulsive company? If my pastor starting saying these types of things about minorities I wouldn’t be a member of that Church for 20 years. I certainly wouldn’t let such an evil persona baptise my children or lead me anywhere, spiritual or otherwise.

Furthermore, it is Obama himself who says what a huge influence Rev. Wright has been in his life. So, is it totally unreasonable to wonder where exactly the cadidate for change is coming from?

Honestly, did you watch the speech? It’s a little bit pointless to discuss something that some of us haven’t seen, especially when it’s readily available (for free!) on the internet.

Yes, I did and I don’t beleive the Senator is sincere. For starters he lied before he came clean. First it was, “I never heard any of that”, then it was, “Well I wasn’t there when those types of things were said”, finally he admits it,”Well I was there when those things were being said but I didn’t like it”. Then of course he gives a speech about race relations in the contemporay US. An excellent speech I might add talking about the racial devide from both sides of the coin, White and Black. He talks about his White Grandmother and Mother and thier fears and he trys to put the Rev. into context. All very good (no kidding). My problem is this; It was a great speech but politically driven. Other words damage control. I question his honesty.

Also, just as an aside the Rev’s spiritual guidance seems to be in line with Mrs. Obama’s earlier comments about America.

Lastly, I guess the last two paragraphs of David C’s post above some up where I’m coming from on this.