Haditha

Not a good story. So now Iraq has its own My Lai. If you thought Abu Ghraib was My Lai, read about Haditha.

24 civilians murdered? Without any provocation? That went on for hours? And then a cover-up? This is a nightmare.

Military to Report Marines Killed Iraqi Civilians

A military investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, Congressional, military and Pentagon officials said Thursday.Two lawyers involved in discussions about individual marines’ defenses said they thought the investigation could result in charges of murder, a capital offense. That possibility and the emerging details of the killings have raised fears that the incident could be the gravest case involving misconduct by American ground forces in Iraq.

Officials briefed on preliminary results of the inquiry said the civilians killed at Haditha, a lawless, insurgent-plagued city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, did not die from a makeshift bomb, as the military first reported, or in cross-fire between marines and attackers, as was later announced. A separate inquiry has begun to find whether the events were deliberately covered up.

Evidence indicates that the civilians were killed during a sustained sweep by a small group of marines that lasted three to five hours and included shootings of five men standing near a taxi at a checkpoint, and killings inside at least two homes that included women and children, officials said.

One senior Defense Department official who has been briefed on the initial findings, when asked how many of the 24 dead Iraqis were killed by the improvised bomb as initially reported, paused and said, “Zero.”

from the L.A. Times:

An administrative inquiry overseen by Army Maj. Gen. Eldon Bargewell found that several infantry Marines fatally shot as many as 24 Iraqis and that other Marines either failed to stop them or filed misleading or blatantly false reports. The report concludes that a dozen Marines acted improperly after a roadside bomb explosion killed a fellow Marine, Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas. Looking for insurgents, the Marines entered several homes and began firing their weapons, according to the report.

We are all going to hear at lot more about this in the coming months and years. I have to agree with Allahpundit, we can’t downplay this or attack those who report it.

I’m just saying that it’s bad form to kill the messenger when serious malfeasance might be afoot. … We’ll be hearing more about this story — check that; we’ll be hearing nothing but this story — for months to come. Stay tuned.

I’m sick. So is John Cole. It’s hard not to over-react to this. TIME’s March 19, 2006 article is grim reading.

Update: After seeing some comments and other bloggers’ reactions —

This story is not about Murtha, nor his detractors. (Personally, I never mentioned Murtha’s comments on this.) The Haditha story is a tragedy for the victims and their families. It is another tragedy for the people of Iraq, as the blowback from this story will play into the terrorists’ hands. It is a tragedy for the armed forces of the United States, who will be tarred by the actions of a few. It is a tragedy for the people of the United States, as it will help inflame global terrorists; our own security is weaker today due to this story.

Conservative bloggers who supported the war in Iraq should face this story head on, and report it vigorously. I also recommend we lay off the whole “who said what about whom in relation to their earlier comments about …, etc..” This is too tragic and important to devolve into an ever-widening pissing contest over Murtha’s word, Malkin’s words, TBogg’s words, etc..

Others have noted that over 500 were killed at My Lai, compared to 24 at Haditha. The global media’s extreme sensitivity to casualties of American wars and to atrocities committed by American soldiers is a reality. Sure, World War Two dwarfed Vietnam on any scale. And yes, the violence in Vietnam dwarfed the events in Iraq (not just My Lai relative to Haditha). But, in the environment of 2006, Haditha will loom as large in the global media, if not in literal body count.

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Hot Air » Blog Archive » Military officials: Haditha might be another My Lai on 26 May 2006 at 11:02 am

    […] Update: The Commissar feels sick. […]

  2. TheThink on 26 May 2006 at 12:21 pm

    Is Haditha Iraq’s My Lai?…

    The low down here (Hot Air), here (USA Today), here (Los Angeles Times), here (NYTimes), and, finally, here (Seattle Times).
    I am not a history snob. There is much about the last century of global politics that I simply do not know, so you won&#8217…

  3. The Jawa Report on 26 May 2006 at 12:50 pm

    Haditha, Jack Murtha, & The Boy Who Cried Wolf…

    Have you ever seen Murtha & MacBeth in the Same Room? Think about it…… Let me just add that abuses happen in war. In all wars. U.S. soldiers participated in massacres in WWII. The fact that soldiers do bad things……

  4. Balloon Juice on 26 May 2006 at 2:15 pm

    […] More here from der Kommissar. […]

  5. In Search Of Utopia on 26 May 2006 at 4:13 pm

    My Lai in Iraq…….

    From Hot Air: I meant to post about this last week when Murtha was making the rounds but I got caught up in other things. Yeah, it’s awful and par for the course that he’d pronounce the Marines guilty before……

  6. Transparent Grid » Blog Archive » Still Waiting for Apology to Murtha on 26 May 2006 at 8:14 pm

    […] The Commisar, a conservative, is finally a breath of sanity from the right on how the Haditha incident should be looked at (i.e. Murtha is not the story). This story is not about Murtha, nor his detractors. (Personally, I never mentioned Murtha’s comments on this.) The Haditha story is a tragedy for the victims and their families. It is another tragedy for the people of Iraq, as the blowback from this story will play into the terrorists’ hands. It is a tragedy for the armed forces of the United States, who will be tarred by the actions of a few. It is a tragedy for the people of the United States, as it will help inflame global terrorists; our own security is weaker today due to this story. […]

  7. The Moderate Voice on 26 May 2006 at 8:50 pm

    Marines May Face Charges In Unarmed Iraqi Civiliian’s Deaths…

    Military investigators have come to a truly sickening conclusion: a Marine-unit with an excellent reputation killed unarmed Iraqi civilians — big and small — and then tried to cover it up, reports …

  8. Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » The Haditha Marines, Update on 26 May 2006 at 10:24 pm

    […] The Politburo Diktat […]

  9. Small Town Veteran on 27 May 2006 at 2:56 am

    Guilty Until Proven Innocent…

    I am sick and f’ing tired of reading Military investigators have concluded … God damn it to Hell people! There hasn’t been a trial yet! What has happened so far is the military equivalent of a Grand Jury investigation to…

  10. Techography - Controlled Fire on 07 Jun 2006 at 11:35 am

    […] Wednesday, June 07 2006 @ 11:18 EDT Contributed by: BloodSpite Views: 0 Save for engaging in debates with some folks over at Politburo Diktat, I have kept my mouth shut thus far on the Haditha issue.Why?Because it happened. There is no denying the fact it happened. However while folks can scream “The Marine’s did it! from hell to breakfast, it doesn’t mean they actually did. Speculation, in the hands of the wrong people is a dangerous and enemy pleasing weapon.Thats what court is for. Thats what the Tribunals will be for. To prove guilt. Until such time they are innocent. Such is the nature of the justice system. And it will do nobody anygood to lambast, rant or rave that someone had to have done what to whom. No matter what you or I believe they will be allowed to prove themselves in court to the full letter of the lawMy stance is simple. If innocent they should go free and all offending parties should issue an outright apology, and formal. (This means you John Murtha)If Guilty, then they have shamed every Veteran with them and before them by their actions and should be hund slow, long, and high.Do I think them guilty? No. Why? Because we are trained froms tart to finish about fire control and casualty minimization. Colaterol Damage is not acceptable. And there are two basic types of soldier: trained or untrainedHowever I think Michael Yon sums it up best in his most recent dispatchBen was the first up the stairs, and he took four bullets. Only then did his buddies throw flash-bangs and eventually shot down the terrorist who killed Ben. All the Iraqi kids were fine. But Ben Morton died. Soldiers cried that night. […]

Comments

  1. seb wrote:

    No excuse for that. I am not looking forward to reading the report. I think that the right wing will have to police itself on this issue. No excuses for war crimes.

  2. Geek, Esq. wrote:

    Where is that cacophony of apologies from those who slandered John Murtha for telling the truth on this?

    *Crickets*

  3. Darrell wrote:

    Geek, Esq. wrote:Where is that cacophony of apologies from those who slandered John Murtha for telling the truth on this?

    First, although it doesn’t look good, can we at least wait to hear the Marines’ defense before deciding what the “truth” is? Second, Murtha is pure scum for making allegations, whether they be found to be true or not, while the investigation was still ongoing, while facts were still being gathered and confirmed.

    If guilty, these Marines deserve severe punishment. But let’s not pretend Murtha is anything but dishonorable scum for what he did.

  4. Captain Ed wrote:

    Good post, Commissar. I’ll be linking it in about an hour or so. You have this exactly right.

  5. Davebo wrote:

    Good post, this is a very serious matter and it should not be politicized.

    These things happen in war, which is why war should always be a last resort. But this incident isn’t the fault of those who supported the war, or of those who opposed it. It’s the fault of those who pulled the trigger.

    One slight correction. It’s “Mi Lai” not “My Lai” unless of course, you have a Lai!

  6. Pixy Misa wrote:

    If this is true, hang them. I hope that it isn’t true, but if it is…

  7. BloodSpite wrote:

    I love MilBlogs. Don’t get me wrong. But Noble Eagle and I have been fighting a small fire fight lately in regards to things like this, and SSg Alberto Martinez for example.

    Its not that we glorify in our own services being wrong (I’m out totally, NE is still in ) but the fact that the only way that we (as in the US Armed Forces and otherwise) is going to gain respect of its people is by hanging things like these out to dry and to the full limit of the law. Period.

    The Green Machine resorted in the 90’s to being a big silent beast because quite frankly the administration was predominantly hostile to it. However we can’t afford to continue down that train of thought.

    We need to put situations and problems like these, and Gharib, out in the open, and deal with it both in Military AND Civic tribunal/court.

    If they are in fact innocent: then justice should prevail. If they aren’t….I’ll help load the rifles. For the dishonor my service as they do every other honest veteran out there.

  8. Pat West wrote:

    Unless there are outright railroaded confessions, which is highly doubtful, it will not be possible to convict these brave Marines of anything. This was not My Lai, involving hundreds of people and troops, many of whom did not wish to do what they had been ordered to do. This was a very small action, involving a small squad of Marines and a few dozen possible partisans. The incident occurred six months ago, and was only recently thoroughly investigated. Stale and questionable evidence in the middle of a war zone! I am reminded of the action in Afghanistan last summer when medals were awarded to a Special Forces Team for carrying out a raid on a village harboring several dozen Taliban who were protecting a famed Taliban Regional Leader. All twenty of the Taliban bodyguards were killed, and just as the Team was leaving, the Regional Leader was detected and captured. Where was he hiding? Why under two native women who were sitting on him with their clothes spread out over him. Yes, the scumbag was armed, and no the women were not killed in the capture of this senior Taliban thug. But they easily could have been, and justifiably so!

  9. RiverRat wrote:

    A caution of all under the age of 60. Do not invoke comparisons to My Lai. The initial reports indicate a couple of weapons (meaning a couple of individuals) with a low level cover-up at the squad or platoon level. Company level command has already been relieved, probably for failure to verify conflicting reports.

    This appears to be what we called in Nam “Blood Rage”. Based upon initial reports, we’re looking at voluntary manslaughter under the UCMJ with some low level collusion to cover it up.

    This is not My Lai. Don’t let the absolutists and the handwringers turn it into another My Lai. The Corps. will handle this and handle it justly.

  10. The Sanity Inspector wrote:

    I’ll reserve judgment until the report’s out. What’s the old saw about not believing the first version of any story?

    And yet, this is not the first version, is it…I hate to see the Marine Corps’ honor stained like this.

  11. commissar wrote:

    All,

    There are two things that people are mixing up:

    1) A massacre occurred in Haditha on that date, unless the media reports of the DoD findings are wholly screwed up. Not likely. This happened. You can also read interviews by survivors.

    2) The guilt of individual Marines would have to be established, beyond a reasonable doubt, in courts martial. No one, me included, has proclaimed any individual as “guilty.”

    Two different things, guys. Don’t mix ‘em up. Every Marine who is ultimately charged deserves, and will get, due process.

    But you’re kidding yourself if you think this massacre didn’t happen.

  12. Steve wrote:

    Did not General Mattis tell us that it’s fun to shoot these people? The commandant is flying around telling them they should not be indifferent to human life. I am completely confused??????

  13. JimK wrote:

    Before anyone starts hanging these marines, watch the A&E documentary “Combat Diaries.” They tell a very fair story about Lima company (3rd Battalion, First Marines, the current Haditha story is Kilo company, same). Haditha has a prominent spot. It’s not all innocents and poor defenseless Iraqi children.

    Let’s have the investigatory process before we hang the Marines, shall we?

  14. Dennis Quaranta wrote:

    I hope the Haditha incident prompts discussion about the need for a Marine Corps. Harry Truman didn’t think the Marines were necessary except as the police force for the Navy. OK, Mount Suribachi and all that. But that was sixty years ago. The Marines aren’t relevant anymore, and as we’ve seen, they can certainly be embarrassing.

    While we’re at it, let’s discuss the proliferation of so-called elite units like the Rangers and SEALs. The Rangers were so inept in battle that they killed Pat Tillman, the star of the Army’s PR campaign. Tillman’s family is still waiting for a satisfactory explanation.

  15. BloodSpite wrote:

    One screw up and your ready to discount 3 entire military organizations?

    Never mind the sea of success’s?

    You don’t have much like in horse races do you?

  16. Pigilito wrote:

    A failure of discipline, pure and simple. Well trained troops don’t engage in war crimes. Something seems went wrong at the platoon and company level, judging by the early reports.

    For the sake of all the troops, I hope the investigation is complete.

  17. Steve wrote:

    “The Marines aren’t relevant anymore, and as we’ve seen, they can certainly be embarrassing.”

    Like the stupid idiot Mattis. This is the kind of sick mind that finds a home in the USMC. They are the low of the low, I ought to know, because ashamed to say I was once a marine, but not any more. FTMC!!

  18. Luis wrote:

    It’s the whitewashers we need to worry about. We know about military sickos already.
    A great article on MyLai and Haditha Whitewashers at
    www.mwcnews.net

  19. Birkel wrote:

    Was this a joint Iraqi-American mission and if so who did the shooting? From what I read elsewhere only a handful (or fewer) weapons were used to kill all those who were killed.

    On another note:
    Murtha’s an a$s h*le who is using this alleged criminal act to further his own political agenda of bugging out of Iraq. Never mine the fact that he hasn’t praised any of the soldiers who are bravely exercising their duty.

  20. Birkel wrote:

    mine –> mind

    Never mind.

  21. Dennis Quaranta wrote:

    The Marines lost sight of what the war was about, and who can blame them? They must have thought that the point of the war was to teach the Hajis what happens when they don’t show proper respect.

    Who can blame them for making that mistake? Some huge number of Americans still think Saddam was behind September 11th. The Arabs have to be punished.

    The world judges us harshly. We might as well get used to the presumption of guilt. We invaded a sovereign country to teach them a lesson, and we sure did that, didn’t we?

    Some Marine’s Dad is going to say, “My boy’s no murderer.”

  22. BloodSpite wrote:

    Excluding Sept 11th and the whole Saddam had nothing to do with conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo, are you saying then that Saddam was just a innocent bystander who we should have left in power to continue killing people left right and helter skelter?

    I don’t know about you but I was taught that evil is evil, no matter what the reason. We basically finished a job we should have done in 1992.

    Soverign? I wasn’t aware there was anything soverign about dictatorships. heh. Been reading Mao lately?

  23. Zopilote wrote:

    Bloodspite wrote:

    “Soverign? I wasn’t aware there was anything soverign about dictatorships. heh.”

    Sovereignty is a term that applies not to governments but to the people of a country. The Iraqi people are sovereign, the American people are sovereign, etc. If a government is illegitimate (such as a dictatorship), that does not mean that the people’s sovereignty is not to be respected.

    The Iraqi people (who are and were sovereign) had a right to rise up and overthrow their dictator. It would have been perfectly acceptable, in such a case, for the US (or another country) to provide arms or other assistance to the Iraqi people to enable them to carry out their goal. To invade a country and occupy it, however, is an infringement on the sovereignty of the people of that country.

  24. Purple Avenger wrote:

    …from those who slandered John Murtha for telling the truth on this?

    And won’t you look quite the fool if this turns out to be another Pantano style witch hunt/debacle?

    The only thing I’m sure of here is that I’m not sure of anything here. I can wait for the process to play out.

  25. Dennis Quaranta wrote:

    Are you suggesting that trigger-happy Ilario Pantano was innocent? The last thing the Marines want is for the Pantano thing to come back into the public eye. Pantano’s wealthy family was going to put the Marine Corps on trial, especially General Mattis,* Pantano’s commander at the time. Pantano was clearly guilty of manslaughter, but the Marines backed away from a public relations struggle with a savvy, deep-pocket opponent.

    Merry Pantano high-fives her son’s supporters on the Defend the Defenders website: “We thank everyone who took such a personal interest in the successful fight to have my son, Marine 2nd Lt. Ilario Pantano, exonerated of all the charges against him giving him freedom and restoring his good name.”

    That’s not the truth of the matter. Pantano was not exonerated; his “good name” was not restored. The Marines simply folded.
    ___________
    *General Mattis is the source of the quote: “Actually, it’s a lot of fun to fight. You know, it’s a hell of a hoot… It’s fun to shoot some people. I’ll be right upfront with you, I like brawling… You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn’t wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway. So it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them.”

  26. BloodSpite wrote:

    Aye, and we didn’t overthrow the people of the country, but their government. In fact great pains have been taken to restore the people things that their country and previous government not only took away but refused to return, including TV STations, Hospitals, Schools, basic needs like roads, water lines and sewage.

    The construction in that region has been monumental.

    So my statement and arguement stands. The Dissolution of 3 different military organizations because a handful fell to the wayside (you’ll note I am NOT defending them. As I have written here previously if they are guilty I’ll help load the firing squad. They dishonor my and every other veterans service.) is not justification, I’m sorry.

    The benefits and success far out weigh the failure’s.
    If you beleieve all or the majority of soldiers are ntohing more than rabid animals who “shoot people for fun” then you are sorely deluded and misguided.

  27. BloodSpite wrote:

    Schools

    Childrens Hospital

    Water treatment facility, Fire Stations, Police Stations and Trainings Facilities

    And who destryoed those oil pumping stations anyway? Oh yea. Forgot. The Iraqi Army under Saddam. Heh.

    But just because I can. Here’s a Power Station recently constructed

    First New power plant in Iraq since 1976 Gonna blame the delay on us as well?

    And another under construction currently

    People in Iraq do a lot more than just huddle in fear in their homes, although you would love for us to believe that OD. The links above show that.

    But here’s some more for ya
    Operation Iraqi Kids. A school building and education program

    Shoe’s for Kids

    Scout Program for Kids in Iraqi Schools

    Note that the pictures in these websites don’t show people hiding under their beds. They are Iraqi kids, in a school, and smiling, happy.

  28. commissar wrote:

    OMG, a link duel.

    I gotta make this easier for the commenters. I can go into your comments (and I will), and make these into nice HTML formatted links. But I gotta enable that in the ordinary comment box.

  29. commissar wrote:

    OD,

    “Most Iraqis wouldn’t dare let their children go out to school. People just huddle in their homes waiting for the nightmare to end.”

    Demonstrably false.

    This is a constant theme with Lefties that someone will explain to me someday (I hope). You’ve got a decent case that reconstruction hasn’t gone as well as we had hoped. Fine. Why embroider such points with over-the-top nonsense?

  30. BloodSpite wrote:

    Who are you reading then OD?

    Back to Iraq 3.0?
    http://www.back-to-iraq.com/

    I suggest Irag Blog Count
    http://iraqblogcount.blogspot.com/

    Or Iraq the Model
    http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

    Also you lack the lines to transport it to people’s homes. And you lack the security to build and maintain those power lines. The end result is declining power for Iraqis.

    Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world.

    The reasons they don’t have those lines is because they never had those lines to begin with. The reason the oil is not pumping is Saddam’s troops sabotaged as many refineries and pumps as they could during retreats.

    Now here’s a nifty question for you. Based on the information that you just provided how can anyone rationally say “Its a War for Oil!” You just painstakingly showed that the oil is just sitting there

    Want a excellent read on Iraq? I strongly suggest Micheal Yon
    http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

    Perhaps you didn’t hear about the Army unit that rushed an Iraqi girl stateside for emergency syrgery? Or you didn’t hear about the TV Station that I and other bloggers helped raise money for Spirit of America to build?

    Perhaps you don’t know about those things, and thats fine.

    But your facts on power aren’t adding up.
    Here http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/cepa/pubs/apr04/story6.htm
    for instance it says
    The Baiji Mobile project will install eight 23 megawatt dual fuel (diesel and gas) turbine generators at the thermal transfer plant. The initial fuel for these generators will be diesel for at least 30 days before switching over to gas. Once connected to the national grid, all eight will supplement the grid’s power supply at the 132 kilovolt or 400 kilovolt line, adding 184 megawatts. That is equal to an extra half hour of electricity for every home, shop, and factory in Iraq.

    Further your information on the Amount is off badly.

    According to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/30/AR2005043001121.html)the Pre-War levels were 4.400 not 5,400
    In fact, the national grid’s average daily output of 4,000-4,200 megawatts falls below its prewar level of about 4,400 megawatts. (Emphasis mine)

    I will grant you that there is a shortage in the WP’s number’s. But 200 Meagwatts is a far cry difference from 1,200 Megawatts.
    “It is the government of this country who is going to provide electricity. The Americans don’t provide electricity,” William B. Taylor, director of the U.S. Embassy’s Iraq Reconstruction Management Office, said in an interview. “The government is going to get the credit and they’re taking the responsibility, and they’re doing a good job. They’ve got some problems. We’re helping them as much as we can. We got a lot of money we’re putting into this. And we have a lot at stake here. We want them to succeed. We want them to be able to provide electricity to their people.”

  31. BloodSpite wrote:

    And thanks for fixing the links Commissar. I hate spamming links like that. They look sorta trashy especially when we do a bunch of them back to back.

  32. BloodSpite wrote:

    The War for Oil statement was intended as a strawman, and I concede it willingly and happily. However I’ve found its typically the next argument offered in any debate.

    My point is simple. Since 1976 there has been absolutely no attempt at fixing the current power system in Iraq. At all. And what your source doesn’t say is at that Pre-War level, less than 50% of the country even had it to begin with. We may be less on the overall megawatt scale, but more of the country has power thanks to our involvement than they did before we ever got there.

    And you would have to show me proof on the Iraq having the best hospital system. Its been my understanding that Saudi Arabi, Israel and Jordan have had much better care facilities than Iraq or Iran for about the last decade.

    The Girl in question is Rhma Taha Ahmed

    he was five years old and her name was Rhma Taha Ahmed, and she was afraid of the soldiers, but the father asked the Americans to slow down and look at his daughter. Rhma hid her face while her dad showed her fingers and toes to LT Kearney. Her nails were receded and there was blood-blistering, her fingers and toes were tones of red and purple. SFC Joel Lundak called a medic who checked Rhma’s vital signs and said she seemed to have a heart condition.

    Her father produced papers from a doctor, medical records of a sort, and the interpreter said the documents reported that Rhma had an inoperable congenital heart defect and would die slowly and painfully. LT Kearney called for Captain Paul Carron, the B company commander, who looked at Rhma and decided to do something. As it happened, a journalist named Sandra Jontz was riding along with Deuce Four on this mission, and Sandra decided to do something, too. She snapped pictures and took notes.

    Because of the Duece Four and Micheal Yon RHama was succesfully brought to a hospital in Arizona and underwent surgery for her heart condition.
    http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/battle-for-mosul-part-iii.htm/

    As far as infrastructure goes, there never was a infrastructure in Iraq. Unless your going to say going to bed and having your family taken out of a house in the night and shot by Saddam’s secret police was welcome to them.

    FInd me links to these “Government Death Squads”. Are you saying that the US and Iraqi governments actually sanction the killing of civilians? Because if so your opening a even bigger can of worms than what you have already shown.

    Also your data on the Electricity is 3 years old. The source I quoted was from the begining of this month. Your source also shows the very power plant that I mentioned just started being constructed. It’s since finished.

    4/22/03 Bechtel team arrives in Kuwait. Initial activities for power reconstruction begin.

    Power was only available in Baghdad before we ever set foot in country between 16 to 18 hours a day. Now they recieve it 24 hours a day, save for sabotage interuptions.

    And as I quoted from above, the Power isn’t our responsbility, (never was. We didn’t destroy it.) but we are helping them anyway.

    Why?

    Because its the Right thing to do.

  33. bentan wrote:

    The Haditha incident really makes me wonder about how the Marines select their NCOs and small-unit leaders. Is it based purely on gung-ho-ness and leadership ability or is there some emphasis placed on mental stability and common sense? I mean what kind of sergeant in his right mind leads an assault on young children? How is it even possible to mistake these as combatants or people posing any kind of threat?

  34. The Sanity Inspector wrote:

    I mean what kind of sergeant in his right mind leads an assault on young children? How is it even possible to mistake these as combatants or people posing any kind of threat?

    If this is true, then perhaps their professionalism slipped after that IED attack, and they went berserk in a fit of rage. They are the best, but they aren’t robots.

    It’s just awful, at any rate. Who knows how much goodwill this will wind up squandering?

  35. BloodSpite wrote:

    Its pretty easy to confuse a 13 year old with a combtant. Take in to consideration Haiti, Somalia and numerous other countries where its been perfectly normal to find a 14 year old popping out of an alley with an AK-47.

    Then your forced to make a judgement call. If you have a 14 year old, shooting at you, do you return fire?

  36. Andrew Milner wrote:

    Haditha: Just when you think things can’t possibly get any worse; suddenly they do. Looks like Haditha was the tip of a very nasty iceberg. The game’s always rougher when the Cousins are involved. But seriously I can sympathise: Took us Brits decades to come to grips with how brutal the Black and Tans were in Ireland. And on a white, Christian civilian population, too. Not like they were Asian or Muslim. No wonder you guys are in denial. Everything’s either a lie or a conspiracy. Can’t take anything as gospel, not even the Bible. So what can you do about this identity crisis? Well, you could wear a black hat, grow a moustache and suck it up.
    Unlike you guys, us Brits aren’t burdened with outdated notions like patriotism or “my country right or wrong” nationalism. For us it’s just “hate it and leave it”, and which part of the world offers me personally the best deal. So tell the risk adverse losers with their “rats leaving the sinking ship” rhetoric to piss up a stick and don’t get their hands wet. Apply for a passport before Bush makes holding one either illegal or so difficult that most give up. How hard is it to get Canadian nationality?
    On a clear day I get to see Mount Fuji, so you can’t accuse me of not putting my money where my mouth was.

  37. yakfitguy wrote:

    Amazing. Right-wing denial of the facts of this war just goes on and on. Soon, you’ll all be forced to eat your words and you will owe John Murtha a big apology. He has many friends who are serving Marine officers and he speaks for them because they can’t speak for themselves. He was officially briefed by the Pentagon who relayed the details of the incident. Details that paint an ominous picture of that day.

    I watched people excuse and misrepresent the Abu-Gharib abuses, and here it goes again. Hey Bloodspite: Just to let you know buddy, one victim in Haditha was a 3-year old girl who was shot in the head at close range. Let me guess: She was confused with a terrorist too huh? Oh and Bloodspite: We built all kinds of “good news” accomplishments in S. Vietnam too like schools, roads, etc. Tell me sir, who runs Vietnam today? The Vietnamese Communist party or us?

    And for those of you who refuse to believe witness accounts of this event from the survivors to hospital administrators to Iraqi police to the Iraqi goverment itself (I know, I know Iraqi’s can’t be trusted to tell the truth), I ask: Why the automatic denial? Yes, we need more information, but the evidence produced so far is compelling enough to warrant serious action. We need more facts. Ok, fair enough. If only you folks had displayed such caution with regard to the “facts” before you blindly zieg-heiled our “president” as he launched this power-grab stinking war of lies.

    Just like the Serbs who wouldn’t accept the massacres in Bosnia by their own troops were anything but Western media lies, you can’t accept that our good boys could have done such a thing. And when you hint at such accepetance, you rationalize it til it goes away. If it’s mentioned more than you like, well..that’s the “liberal” media trying to tear down our country.

    What’s sick about this, is that these Marines, just like the Army MP’s at Abu Gharib, will be sacrificed by our government to save face. The Pentagon will frame the incident as “isolated” and committed by a few “bad apples” Maybe they’ll parade a few white trash-looking redneck marines on television for added effect. They will be railroaded, all other similar incidents (FYI, this is not the first time we have callously gunned down innocent people, and I’m not talking about checkpoints where we “accidentally” shoot pregnant women rushing to the hospital to give birth), will be swept under the rug, and the officers and politicians reponsible for this Iraq debacle will get promotions and applause. More damage to American credibility.

    Makes me want to sing Lee Greenwood tunes!

  38. BloodSpite wrote:

    Yak you need to read the rest of the comments folks have posted here.

    You’ll see that earlier I said point blank that if they are guilty, they should be shot. And I’ll help with the firing squad.

    I meant that then and now. But its not up to us to decide whose guilty or innocent. Thats up to the Tribunals and Courtmartials that they’ll be participants of.

    There is no defense for shooting a 3 year old. None.

    But my statement stands in regards to there being a premise of Teenagers with firearms.

    Iraq isn’t Vietnam. Unless you can tell me what country is currently at a Border threatening to invade while we stand with the inhabited country fighting them off.

    I’ll never owe John Murtha an apology. I think the man is an asshat to construe guilt without a trial, just as your doing now. Innocent until Proven guilty.

    The burden of proof is not for them to prove their innocence, but for the prosecution to prove that they are guilty. It’s whats known as “shadow of a doubt”.

    There are just as many Marine’s saying “Couldn’t happen”. Can it however? Yes. Did it? Yes. Did they do it? Only time and trials, will tell.

    But I especially loved the part on “power grab war of lies”. Ok so which part do you not beilieve? The part where Saddam killed 300,000 Kurds? Or the part where he used Chemical weapons to do it?

  39. BloodSpite wrote:

    A quick example.

    Since apparently “War war war ” is not an option with you.

    Lets see how the “Jaw Jaw jaw” side of the house is fairing.

    http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_24456.shtml

    There were reports of wounded civilians being wheel-barrowed along streets and mortar rounds exploding in hospital grounds. It was another ugly chapter in Somalia’s violent history.

    For more than a decade, this nation in the Horn of Africa has come to symbolise the worst traits of a failed state - violence, rule by the power of the gun, and extortion and exploitation by warlords who have carved the country into fiefdoms.

    The battles have raged on and off for months, pitting militias loyal to Islamic courts in the capital against an alliance of warlords who claim to be fighting under the banner of “anti-terrorism”.

    Hell. And we don’t even have troops on the ground there. So much for that idea. Back to the Chomsky drawing board.

  40. commissar wrote:

    Yakfitguy,

    “The Pentagon will frame the incident as “isolated” and committed by a few “bad apples” “

    You imply therefore that the vast majority of US military are committing similar atrocities, with approval from above.

    Evidence, please.

  41. yakfitguy wrote:

    Bloodspite: Of course, I as you, would not convict anyone without strong evidence proving guilt. We need to know more and you are right, it’s not our job to try them.
    My frustration is the auto-denial and excusing of war crimes by the right in order to sustain support for this war. I clearly remember Rush Limbaugh for one, explaining away the abuses at Abu Gharib by saying (and I paraphrase here), “They aren’t there for traffic offenses” Translation: “They deserve it.” He had much company with his position in right-wing circles. The record of hundreds and thousands of prisoners released from US and Iraqi detention centers in the last 3 years speaks otherwise. How many innocents were tortured?

    Commissar:
    “You imply therefore that the vast majority of US military are committing similar atrocities, with approval from above.”

    No, I did not imply that. However, killing civilians and in a dismissive manner, classifying them as “terrorists”, creates among the Iraqis a sense that we simply do not value their lives and to many Americans, the truth we tell our citizens. One cannot help feeling there is a deliberate attempt to sanitize this war by our government. The majority of soldiers are professional and honorable. What I am implying is the arrogance and callousness of those in power who have put our troops in danger once again without a clear plan to win. I don’t want to hear that turning security over to more and more Iraqi’s is winning. It’s not. If someone can define victory in Iraq for me without me falling over laughing, I’m all ears.

    War is hell. Atrocities happen. That’s why it’s so important to avois war and when we have to go, to send our troops on an honest mission, with adequate planning and equipment to meet the specific goals that allow a exit strategy. When that is done, war crimes such as this are kept to a minimum. Leave them to rot in Iraq for year after year as we have done, turn them into shooting ducks for guerrilla attacks, and well you get My Lai, Haditha, etc.

    This isn’t Vietnam. It’s worse. The Vietnam war started with noble goals. This war started with outright lies. And by year 3 of that conflict, we actually had fewer killed than by year 3 in Iraq. Check the numbers yourself.

    BloodSpite: “But I especially loved the part on “power grab war of lies”. Ok so which part do you not beilieve? The part where Saddam killed 300,000 Kurds? Or the part where he used Chemical weapons to do it?”

    How can you be so selective in your thinking?

    Saddam did not kill 300,000 Kurds with gas. There is no evidence of that. If you mean Iranian soldiers, well perhaps I could agree. FYI, the Turks (our allies )are guilty of murdering thousands of Kurds themselves.

    The tragedy in Iraq, in fact the very atrocities you cite, have American and British fingerprints all over them. If you are interested, read on.

    In 1915, a combined Turkish, Austo-Hungarian, and German expeditionary force under General Limon von Sanders set out across the middle-east on a trek to reach Afghanistan. Their goal: To threaten Brtish and French colonial interests in the region by inflaming Muslim grievences and sensitivities toward their colonial masters in as many countries as possible. The modern definition of Islamic Jihad was born.

    They failed, but not completely. They created the seeds of Muslim discontent, especially in Iraq and Syria. New anti-colonial and anti-western groups arose. One was called the Baath party. The British and French betrayal of the Arabs after WWI and the artificial carving up of the middle east into impossible states likke Iraq and Trans-Jordan only added fuel to the fire.

    Later in the 1930’s and into WWII, the Nazi’s and Italians used this to their advantage by funneling weapons, advisors, and money mainly to the radical, fascist Baath party. The British were forced to put down several insurrections in Iraq during the war.

    Fast forward to the 1950’s. The King of Iraq was deposed and replaced by the Soviet-allied General Qassim. The West, of course, now had a cold-war problem on their hands. Who in Iraq hated communists, and wanted to take power?

    The Baath Party.

    At that time, Saddam Hussein was a low-mid level Baath terrorist and thug. But he soon became OUR thug. Yep, he was put on the CIA payroll and began gathering intelligence for us against the Qassim regime. We gave the Baathist money, training, and intelligence assitance. Allying with fascists to fight communsim was nothing new to America.

    So, Coup de’tat!

    Saddam soon became #2 in the party and was responsible for torturing and murdering tens of thousands of Iraqi political opponents throughout the 1960’s and 70’s. Many with CIA assitance. Where was our outrage then?

    When he reached #1 in 1979, the true terror began for the Iraqi people. That’s also when Saddam’s Iraq became America’s anti-Iranian buddy.

    Gas? Where do think they got the gas? US. It’s public record. Using the gas? We helped him do that too. A common tactic Saddam used against the fanatical legions of Iranian cannon-fodder, was to use American spy sattelites to fix on large troop concentrations. Then he used gas to kill them by the thousands.

    (ed.  — The question of who supported  has been debated and debunked enough on this blog. Yakfit’s claims are lies.)
    Did the murder in Iraq go on during the 1980’s? Oh yes, ask those in Halabja who survived the gas attack. Did we still support Saddam? Of course we did. I wonder how many Iraqis were being tortured at the very moment Rumsfeld was shaking hands with that Iraqi official in that now famous photo? Nope, no outrage or right-wing black and white moralism there.

    The deeper one digs into the facts of this war, the more ugly and depressing it gets.

  42. BloodSpite wrote:

    There’s no proof of that”

    Actually. there is here.

    For the first time ever, scientists have been able to prove the use of chemical weapons through the analysis of environmental residues taken years after such an attack occurred. In a development that could have far-reaching consequences for the enforcement of the chemical weapons treaty, soil samples taken from bomb craters near a Kurdish village in northern Iraq by a team of forensic scientists have been found to contain trace evidence of nerve gas.

    And that doesn’t include eye witness accounts. The first link is just straight scientific fact.

    You say Hussein was on the CIA payroll? Links for Evidence please.

    The gas used during those chemical attacks was identified as Sarin.

    Its publicized fact that Iraq has been manufacturing their own gas as early as 1984

    I’m afraid you’ll need someone else for that consipiracy theory. There *was* a Theory that a team of A-10 Skyraiders dropped a set of Sarin Bombs, but that theory was completely disproven and in fact CNN fired the reporter who concoted it.

    On your “facts” about the detah toll in iraq versu Vietnam. Way off base here.

    Lets take a look shall we? This information is compiled via the VA Military Database

    Length of US Involvement in Conflict
    Iraq: 3 years (to date)
    Vietnam: 10 years (1965 – 1975)

    US Military War Dead
    Iraq: 2,300
    Vietnam: 65,259 (Includes Tet 1968)

    Enemy Dead (estimates of both military and civilian)
    Iraq: 10,000
    Vietnam: 5,200,000

    Wounded American Troops
    Iraq: 3466
    Vietnam: 303,000

    I’m afraid the facts you have don’t really add up.

  43. commissar wrote:

    Hey, Joe,

    Look .. HTML tags in the comments. Link away

    Like this as the sarin gas link.

  44. commissar wrote:

    Yakfitguy,

    Your word games are annoying. When you said the Pentagon would “frame” Haditha as “isolated,” the inescapable implication is that atrocities are not isolated, but widespread. Try to carry on a normal convo, without retreating into semantics.

    More misrepresention on “three years of casualties.” Sure, if you want to start the clock in 1959, or some other early commitment of a few advisors and Special Forces. But that’s not comparable, and you know it. Start the clock in 1965, with Johnson’s commitment of large ground forces.

    As for the ‘who armed Saddam’ nonsense, I’ve argued it enough. My blog. My rules. That’s the deal.
    Please stop the word games and misrepresentations (site owner speaking here, if that’s not clear).

  45. BloodSpite wrote:

    Hey Awesome! I can stop spamming you with huge URL’s now! lol

  46. yakfitguy wrote:

    Ok Commisar. Your rules and you control the conversation. That’s unfortunate for someone who wishes to challenge opinions, but your right as a blogger.

    Bloodspite: I NEVER lie, but ok frame me as you wish.


    Also, my casualty figures for ‘Nam start in 1963, the actual first year US line troops (not advisors) were deployed in sigificant numbers. When you choose to start that clock seems dictated by your opinion.

    Just remember, “debunking” is nothing more than a putting a different lens on the same set of facts. Perception is everything. Ltr…….

  47. commissar wrote:

    y,

    “Troop strength under Westmoreland was to rise from 16,000 in 1964 to more than 500,000 when he left following the Tet Offensive in 1968. On July 27, 1964 5,000 additional U.S. military advisors were ordered to South Vietnam bringing the total to 21,000.

    On March 8, 1965, 3,500 United States Marines became the first US combat troops to land in South Vietnam, adding to the 25,000 US military advisors already in place.”

    per Wikipedia.

  48. BloodSpite wrote:

    Thx Comm for that link.

    Add to it the facts speak for themselves Y no matter what year I start counting.

    There is no comparison between iraq and Vietnam.

    Oh. Except for US troops being in a foreign country.

    But then we could compare the Balkans, Grenada, Haiti, Somalia, and countless other operations as Vietnam also, under your definition.

    So far I’ve provided links and sources to each one of my responses, to give you fact.

    Both myself and Commissar have repeatedly asked you for links, to show your facts.

    I have never accused you of lying ( RE: I NEVER lie, but ok frame me as you wish.) however I do accuse your facts of having no substantiation. Perhaps its a case of you being misinformed? In which case feel free to peruse any of the data I’ve give you above.

    Speaking of facts let me take it a little further for you. Here’s the 10 Most deadly Combat Actions in Vietnam

    The top 2?
    Ia Drang Valley 300 Killed 10/23/65 - 11/26/65
    Khe Sanh 205 Killed 1/20/68 - 4/14/68

    The Iraq Deadliest Days?

    January 2006 37 Marines and Sailors Killed. 31 of them by a Helicopter Crash.

    Tell me again how there is a comparison?

  49. commissar wrote:

    Joe,

    no matter what year.” Careful on that. What some Lefties do, is run comparions based on 1959-62, or some other pre-1965 period. And guess what? Since we only had a few thousand advisors and Special Forces in Vietnam, pre-1965, casualties were higher than in Iraq 2003-06. It’s an intellectually dishonest comparison, if not an outright lie, but so it goes.

  50. BloodSpite wrote:

    Good point and conceded.

    I should know better as December 1961 P4 James Davis of Livingston, Tennessee killed by the Viet Cong later called by President Johnson “The first American to fall in defense of our freedom in Vietnam”

    Bah leave it to my weekend brain farts

  51. Ant in Dallas wrote:

    If you think that Haditha was barbaric then you must subscribe to the theorum that barbarism is tolerable in degrees.

    War, by it’s nature, is barbaric. As such, any activity perpetrated under the guise of war is barbaric.

    I see a basic tenet of warfare at play in Haditha. “Let the enemy dictate the rules of war.” Where was your outcry when jihadists lopped off the heads of innocent civilians? Where was your outcry when car bombs killed journalists, cameramen and aid workers, all innocent civilians? Non-combatants killed by the jihadists easily outnumber the body count at Haditha.

    A fair fight is fought only when both sides fight fair. If one side crosses the line, all bets are off. It’s time to fight fire with fire.

    I think, personally, it’s about time we took off the kid gloves and operate under the jihadists’ rules of engagement.

    Ant

  52. commissar wrote:

    Ant,

    I supported the war and reported on terrorist barbarities.

    I want to win too. Let’s accept any amount of collateral damage. If we are trying to bomb terrorists and the bomb goes astray, and kills a bunch of civilians, … that’s war. If terrorists hide in a house, and we level the hose, … that’s war.

    How does blowing away a couple dozen innocent civlians help us win?

    Don’t change your tune and say “We don’t know what happened.” We do know. There’s plenty of info about it.

    Your comment suggests that wanton masssacres are okay. No, they are not.

    If you now change, and say “we dont know,” you’re still wrong, because we do know. You are in denial if you pretend that we don’t.

  53. Ant wrote:

    I won’t change my tune in the least. My point has been overlooked, I think.

    To a civilized mind wanton massacres are certainly not okay. However, war is not civilized and therefore civility no longer plays a part trying to rationalize the events.

    Not every deed or action in war is designed to secure a win. Often it is to secure your survival. Unless you have been in combat do NOT discount revenge, retribution, hatred or even combat fatigue as a motivator.

    However, my point is this: Why is there more outrage over Haditha than the 18 severed heads found over the weekend? Why are more people upset with Marines killing civilians than with watching the beheading of non-combatants on television?

    The point is the jihadists have changed the rules of the game. Now we play differently.

    Ant

  54. commissar wrote:

    Why is there more outrage over Haditha than the 18 severed heads found over the weekend? Why are more people upset with Marines killing civilians than with watching the beheading of non-combatants on television?

    Maybe because they are terrorists and we are not?

  55. Ant wrote:

    Exactly. Two people can’t play the same game under different sets of rules. They called the ball on this one. They set the rules. Now, when we play by them, there a huge outpouring of outrage.

    It seems the impression the jihadists have left with the rest of the world is they are insanely fervent, willing to go to any extreme. The US, on the other hand, wants to show the world we can fight a war civilly and within the boundaries of propriety.

    Which set of standards instills a higher sense of fear in his opponent?

    You want to know why no one ever messed with the former USSR? They made it known they will not tolerate it. A KAL airliner floats into Soviet air space gets shot down. Chechnyan rebels take a theater in Moscow, the Soviets kill everyone in it.

    Anyone else take a theater in Moscow after that?

    Any other air craft stray into Soviet airspace after that?

    Like it or not, this war no longer has rules. We either decide to stay and fight their way or we decide to leave.

  56. Ant wrote:

    By the way, “terrorists” is a label WE put on a group of people that terrorize civilian populations outside the genre of war. We are not fighting the Taliban, Al-Qaida or aother “terrorist” organizations in Iraq. We are fighting insurgency. Refer to m-w.com for the difference.

  57. BloodSpite wrote:

    Ant I understand what your saying, but if we lower ourselves to the enemies standards, then we become terrorists ourselves.

    And thats a unacceptable status quo

  58. Ant wrote:

    Your are wrong, BloodSpite. It isn’t a matter of lowering ourselves. There are NO standards. It’s a matter of leveling the playing field.

    Do we stand on our virtue while heads continue to roll, while the jihadists look at us as too compassionate to be in this fight?

    Do we continue to watch as agents of this regime, sympathizers to their cause, continue to assault innocent people in countries like Canada that have nothing to do with this fight?

    It’s time to set the eagle free. It’s time to show Iraq, it’s agents and the rest of the world that we will NOT be trifled with, that we will mete out battlefield justice in the same measure it is received. This is the only thing the jihadists understand.

    Do we do that by killing innocent civilians, you ask.

    Yes, if necessary. The jihadists have repeatedly demonstrated they are willing to do just that.

    Remember Hiroshima? Nagasaki? How long did it take Japan to surrender after that incident?

    Had this bleeding heart attitude been prevalent in the 1700’s we’d still be flying the Union Jack, sipping tea and eating crumpets.

  59. Ant wrote:

    This is what we’re dealing with….

    LA Times
    June 6, 2006

    BAGHDAD — New Iraqi government documents show that, excluding the nearly daily bombings, more Baghdad residents died in shootings, stabbings and other violence in May than in any other month since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

    Meanwhile, authorities reported that at least 61 people were killed or found dead Saturday …….

    Gunmen killed a Russian Embassy official and abducted four others in a daylight attack in the upscale Mansour neighborhood in Baghdad…….

    (Russia opposed the U.S.-led invasion and has not contributed any troops to the coalition effort in Iraq.)

    In Basra, a suicide bomber killed 32 people and wounded 77, officials said. The explosives tore through a crowded market where people were shopping for bicycles ……

    In Baqubah, a mixed city north of the capital, residents found seven heads in two banana crates. One more head, that of a Sunni cleric, was perched on top of the boxes…..

    Also in Baqubah, rebels armed with machine guns and grenade launchers attacked a police checkpoint, killing six officers and a civilian and injuring five people. In a separate incident, four Shiite mechanics were slain by gunmen…..

    In Baghdad, police officers and U.S. soldiers recovered at least 22 bodies that had been burned, blindfolded, handcuffed, thrown into a river or dumped near a pediatric hospital…….

    A roadside bomb hit an ambulance in Baghdad, killing a pregnant woman and injuring the driver. Gunmen fired at another ambulance, killing the driver and injuring a medic. Two other roadside bombs injured six police officers……

    Forgive me for having a hard time finding indignity in Haditha.

    This is the reality of war. Not terrorism, WAR. You cannot possibly hope to inject any humanity, compassion or dignity into any of this nonsense.

    Unfortunately, the die is cast.

  60. BloodSpite wrote:

    Problem #1: No soldier in today’s Army will willing turn in to the Blind Killing Machine that would be neccesary to do what you are proposing

    #2, yes we would become precisely what we are fighting against. If we pull old men and children from their houses in the dead of night and execute them summarily them on suspicion, we’re no better than the IRA of my families home country.

    In the 1700’s our soldiers didn’t go looking for British Families to go kill maim and torture, the British did however, and we still won that war so that analogy is moot.

    The only thing I will agree with you on is that at some point when the families see the terrorist placing an IED and no one waves anyone down, that silent assent becomes outright support.

    But thats still no reason to drop a 200 megaton nuclear warhead to kill 2 million people.

    Such action is neither appropriate nor correct, but above all it’s not the right thing to do

  61. Ant wrote:

    Well, my intent on this blog is not to change anyone’s mind or opinion. I learned along time ago that you can’t fight an olive branch with a sword. Whether anyone chooses to accept it or not, innocent civilians being “summarily” maimed, tortured and killed is a fact of war. Period. You buy the whole package when you set foot on that path. You don’t get to choose what part of “war” you want to agree with, what part of “war” you disagree with or which parts of “war” are right or wrong. It’s been going on since the dawn of man.In the information age, these atrocities are quickly brought into the limelight and it offends the sensibilities of those not involved in the conflict. I daresay that many Marines privately say “good for you” to Kilo company.

    For the record, the military has agreed in principle to my point on numerous occasions. Let’s use My Lai, for example.

    For the record, it was officially 109 civilians killed at Song My, a small hamlet outside My Lai.

    Of the 26 officers and enlisted members of Charlie Companies 1st Platoon, Only Calley was tried and convicted. He was sentenced to life in prison.

    The day after he was sentenced, Nixon ordered him released pending appeal. Upon review, his sentence was reduced to 20 years and he was released after serving only three and a half years under house arrest at Ft Benning.

    In effect, tho the public outcry was much louder over this incident that Haditha, Calley was given a comparative slap on the wrist when the public furor died down.

    Really, don’t argue this point with me. I was there.

    Ant

  62. Ant wrote:

    I was watching the original Superman movie years ago with my wife. She found it difficult to believe that Superman could fly around the world counter clockwise and turn back time.

    I incredibly said to her “You can believe everything else in the movie but you can’t believe that?”

    If you accept ANY aspect of war, you must accept it all.

    The right thing to do? Is war the right thing to do?

  63. BloodSpite wrote:

    innocent civilians being “summarily” maimed, tortured and killed is a fact of war. Period.

    No it’s not a fact, especially on the torture part.
    Maimed and Killed? yes. The difference is method of intent. Did we intentionally set out to shoot those civilians, or were they merely bystanders in a crossfire?

    The difference of death may well be in the semanticss, however the difference goes far deeper

    It is one thing to be in a firefight, and civilians become a casualty of that firefight.

    It is grossly another thing to seek out those civilians and shoot them with full intention.

    I do not have to accept the entire aspect of war. Only the neccesity of it. Methods of war can summarily be rejected or accepted by right of passage or acceptance of the death toll.

    By your method it’s perfectly logical to turn iraq in to the largest piece of manmade glass the world has ever seen.

    By mine I’m willing to spare the lives of some 5 million people, and eliminate a few thousand who are actually causing the problem.

    Don’t pull the tough guy “I was there” routine with me either. I’ve seen the elephant and the owl as well, my wars no different than yours, by your own very definition. No matter what war or name it goes by the end result is a soldier with a gun pulling a trigger.

    Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can
    do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can
    do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies
    violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a
    descending spiral of destruction….The chain
    reaction of evil — hate begetting hate, wars
    producing more wars — must be broken, or we shall
    be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.

    Martin Luther King said that.

    We seek the enemy for justice, we seek the enemy to stop his killing of innocents. We seek the enemy to halt the destruction and slaughter. But we do not seek the enemy, as the enemy.

    And thats why I say we have to do the right thing. Because otherwise all we do is provide incentive for escalation.

  64. Ant wrote:

    “Don’t pull the tough guy “I was there” routine with me either. ”

    You know, there is always “one”. I have found that when any debate ensues, there is always “one”.

    “One” that doesn’t take the comment in context. I am not portraying myself as a tough guy. My comment was intended to portray first hand knowledge, not to puff out my chest.

    Always “one”. No matter the material there is always “one”.

    “One” that cannot confine the debate to it’s merits, but has to make it personal. You have no reason to accuse me of portraying a tough guy. The fact that you cannot interpret context does not in fact infer that I am haughty.

    “And thats why I say we have to do the right thing.”

    Thank you. Thank you for not hugging your tree long enough to tell me and many others like me what the right thing to do is.

    As a matter of fact, since you’ve already made this personal, I will leave you in your Democratic, liberal ingorance by saying I hope to whatever God is out there no one will ever be unfortunate enough to be forced to share combat with you. I’d rather have someone next to me that will watch my back and not run around the village telling the civilians how much we love them.

  65. commissar wrote:

    So Bloodspite is a tree-hugging, Democratic, ignorant liberal … because he opposes murdering civilians.

  66. BloodSpite wrote:

    Well right up until that comment I was respecting you Ant for actually debating the topic.

    I was not trying to take away from your actualities, but remind you of the fact that you are not the only “one”

    For a former soldier you should realise complete opression of the indin’s is not the way to win their hearts and minds and pull them to our side. If that were the case then we should have left Saddam’s regime in tact.

    After all it was so very succesful before we got there. Kill a few hundred thousand innocents and nobody back talks you.

    I’ve been called many things but I have to admit, tree hugger has never been one of them. Touche.

  67. Eric wrote:

    Steve,
    FTMC? Hope you appreciate that you didn’t have to write that in characters, but rather could say it in English.

    Might I ask what your discharge was, or your RE code? 4 was it.

    As for the other Marine haters out there, what is your grand contribution to our nation? Ah yes, nothing.

    When the investigations are done, we’ll see what our system of justice brings. We all know it isn’t perfect, but we’ll see.

    As for the likes of Steve and Mr Quaranta. I feel sorry for you, but take heart, there is no law against being stupid.

  68. Ant wrote:

    When the Geneva Convention was drawn and ratified by the “civilized” nations of the world, you could depend on them to adhere to the tenets. Today the GC is outdated. The rules of war are changing, despite anyone’s attempt to arrest that change. That fact is undeniable. You simply cannot fight this war using conventional wisdom. The terrorist mentality sees compassion in its enemy as weakness and therefore not only has no respect for them but no longer fears them. Psychological aspect of the war now favors the jihadists.

    I do not advocate turning Iraq into the world’s largest piece of man made glass. Again my point is lost. Hiroshima/Nagasaki telegraphed a message, one that said we, too, are capable and willing to be as extreme as our enemies and even more so. It was an EXAMPLE, not an advocation.

    Ignorance is not a derogatory term. It is simply a lack of understanding. My reference to that term was borne from the fact that some of my points are dissected and reinterpreted out of context.

    As far was what I should and should not understand, as a former soldier, goes I’ll only say this. There are soldiers and there are warriors. Anyone in a uniform is a soldier. The cook is a soldier, as is the company clerk, paymaster and quartermaster. These are vital functions in the military, but they are not warriors. As such, those soldiers will have a distinctly different perspective on the role of the military than the combat-experienced soldier.

    Democratic, tree hugging liberal is descriptive of an attitude that parallels the attitudes of those demographics.

    Murder is knowingly and willingly causing the death of another. That fact that the victim wears a uniform does not alter that definition. What you described above (kill a few hundred thousand innocents) was genocide, the mass killing of an ethnic population. If you interpret anything I have posted as advocating genocide then again my point is lost on you.

    I stopped seeking respect from anyone on April 23, 1972, Blood. I can appreciate a dissenting point of view without attacking the personality of the holder of that point of view. Until you personalized this debate by attaching a personality to an opposing perspective, I thought things were going pretty well.

    Now that the personal attacks are out of the way, can we resume this discussion?

  69. Ant wrote:

    RE: Post #67…..

    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

    Lead The Way! Hoo-Wah!

  70. Ant wrote:

    RE: Post #67…..

    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

    Lead The Way! Hoo-Wah!

    Ant

  71. John the Marine wrote:

    Bloodspite? Liberal? Hugging Trees? What is next: Granola and Sandals?

    To a certain extent I agree with Ant. Enough ***** footing around. He makes a very real point. The enemy sees our compassion as weakness. This doesn’t mean we need to; rape, pillage and burn, but we should stop beating the propaganda drum for the enemy.

    Take the necessary action to punish those responsible for committing atrocities. This needs to be done not for show but to maintane disapline in the ranks.

    A final thought: Lets not waste too much time ringing our hands over this. If we spent 1/10 the amount of time selling our cause as we did trashing our own military we might make a little headway in the arena of World opinion.

  72. Ali wrote:

    You’re right John, if this had happened during WWII…