A Link Cheapskate’s View

This post is blogging “inside baseball,” about NZBear’s Ecosystem. Skip it if you like.


A kerfuffle has erupted between NZBear, who maintains the Ecosystem, and some members of the Open Trackback Alliance (OTA). NZBear’s summary of the problem is here. Samantha Burns summarizes the OTA position here. (Sam and Mr. Big emphasize that the dispute isn’t between OTA and NZ Bear, it’s between some bloggers doing trackbacks whom happen to be part of OTA, and some that are not.) I count as friends many on both sides of this, and will pass on making a judgement.

But I will comment on NZ Bear’s latest proposal, considered purely on its merits, and from my perspective, regardless of the proximate cause of the proposal. NZBear:

In the Ecosystem right now, all links are equal. But I’m considering changing that. It doesn’t seem right to me that if Blogger A links to 3,000 other blogs, and Blogger B only links to 300, that those blogs receiving the links from B get exactly the same “credit” as those receiving one of A’s few thousand links.

A link is a recommendation; it says, “Go look over here, and you’ll find something interesting.” So should a recommendation from someone who says everything is interesting be considered as valuable as one from someone who seems to choose their recommendations with more care?

Without getting into implementation details or an exact algorithm, suffice it to say that it would be simple enough for me to refine the Ecosystem’s rules so that truly profligate linkers’ links did not count for as much as more normal blogger’s links. But would that be a good and useful thing?

In the title, I characterize myself as a “link cheapskate.” I counted the outgoing links to bloggers on my front page; there are15. Fifteen. I also know that I prune my Blogroll from time-to-time, aiming to keep it at about 100 blogs. Because I like to follow any one blogger more or less regularly, and can’t manage more than that. I also link to the Raging RINOs, with 85 members, a group with a specific political orientation; we have one carnival a week, in which the host links out to 25-30 participants.

So, I don’t give out many links. Yes, I would like the Ecosystem to reflect that. I would like to know that individually considered links carry more weight than large-scale, mechanical links. I would find the Ecosystem even more useful, if I knew that it was valued most items that bloggers had decided to link to individually.

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. aaron on 25 Nov 2005 at 7:28 am

    A Speculum’s View of TTLB Ecosystem Link Sluttage

    NZ Bear is trying to devalue link-sluttage. That’s good. But his approach is too complicated.
    There’s a relatively easy way to do this. Keep the Link and Traffic definitions as they are.
    However, determine Ecosystem ranking on somethi…

  2. basil's blog on 25 Nov 2005 at 10:00 am

    NZ Bear, TTLB, and TrackBacks

    Lots of discussion about NZ Bear’s decision to stop counting TrackBack links in his Ecosystem. This little blog would possibly be affected by that. So what? We ain’t got no business being in the top 100 — much less top 40 — any…

  3. The Real Ugly American on 25 Nov 2005 at 2:16 pm

    Open Trackbacks and TTLB ecosystem / Open Track Back!

    Forgive me for speaking for the rest of you and please correct me if I am wrong. The reason we participate in Open Trackbacks is to drive readers to our sites. Yes we do this because we love it but we also want folks to read our fantastic, insightful, …

  4. Politechnical » Ecosystem Furor on 26 Nov 2005 at 11:41 pm

    […] The Commisar is of the opinion that if he links 1/10th the number of sites as a “linkwhore”, his links should be worth 10X as much. I see some Mother Russia’s thinking here- a zero sum game approach that keeps the link cheapskate and the promiscuous linker at the same relative level. […]

  5. WuzzaDem on 27 Nov 2005 at 12:29 am

    Announcing: The Stuffed Crotch Alliance

  6. Six Meat Buffet » Monday Link Madness on 28 Nov 2005 at 4:21 pm

    […] Speaking (again) of The Commissar, he has a good post summarizing the whole debate, but would also like to see linkage weighted according to how many external links a blogger may provide. So, I don’t give out many links. Yes, I would like the Ecosystem to reflect that. I would like to know that individually considered links carry more weight than large-scale, mechanical links. I would find the Ecosystem even more useful, if I knew that it was valued most items that bloggers had decided to link to individually. […]

  7. Cake Eater Chronicles on 30 Nov 2005 at 12:56 pm

    A Bit of Advice For Bloggers From Your Friendly Neighborhood Cake Eater

    When your head is stuffy and you’re finding it increasingly hard to locate the kleenex box, let alone think originally, yet need new content for your blog, I’ve got two words that magically spell out your solution: link dump. Say…

  8. The Real Ugly American.com » Blog Archive » Open Trackbacks and TTLB ecosystem / Open Track Back!A on 26 Jan 2006 at 11:23 pm

    […] As you can imagine lots of other bloggers are talking about this: Myopic Zeal, Aarons CC, Iowavoice, Stop The ACLU, The Politburo Diktat, The Tar Pit, Adam’s Blog, Decision08, The Floriday Masochist, Jo’s Cafe, and Basil’s Blog, are among them. […]

Comments

  1. Sabertooth wrote:

    “I don’t give out many links. I would like the Ecosystem to reflect that. I would like to know that individually considered links carry more weight than large-scale, mechanical links. I would find the Ecosystem even more useful, if I knew that it was valued most items that bloggers had decided to link to individually.”

    Describe the algorithm that would do this. How is fewer out going links an indicator of that they are necessarily more “individually considered?” How is more outgoing links an indicator that they’re necessarily “mechanical?”

    I’ve done posts that required a few days to gather dozens of pertinent links in order to paint a larger picture than would be possible with only a link or two. An outcome-based system that weighted links as you’ve described would devalue the links in heavily referenced posts in favor of “hey, go look at this” one-liners.

    How does being a “link cheapskate” necessarily make your links of greater value than the links of someone who cross-references heavily?

  2. commissar wrote:

    Sabretooth,

    I give out 15 links. You give out 1500. Mine would count 100 times as much.

  3. Dan Kauffman wrote:

    When I only had one or two then five then ten links to my blog I always checked out any new link to me and if I felt compatible with their thinking linked back.

    I considered it common courtesy, now that I am a Large Mammal with according to TTLB 194 links (BTW I hit large mammal BEFORE Open Track Backs) I should
    “forget where I came from” and be stingy with links?

    Nope, if it costs me ranking so be it. I consider linking to be networking and in the spirit of the Name I chose for my blog.

    What I look for whether it be a community blog roll, open trackback or comments by me on another blog is referal links in my sitemeter account PARTICULARLY when the hit spends some real time on site and hits more than one page. A page being one to two weeks of posts.

    That tells me I have a reader, not just a hit and scoot clicker.

  4. SayUncle wrote:

    I don’t participate in these OTB things but seems to me they counter the other blogging ‘inside baseball’ where a collection of bloggers constantly link to each other. For example, insty always links (nearly every day) to volokh, althouse and others. Then there’s the Ace, INDC, Goldstein triumvirate. One of our local TV stations has a blog and they constantly link to a few local blogs. Etc., etc.

    What’s next, not counting links with the word ‘carnival’ in it? I think people place way too much emphasis on the link thing. I think the true measure of a blog’s success is traffic and number of subscriptions to feeds.

    I used to limit my outward links to about 70 or so (excluding a blog alliance) but now I use bloglines and can read many more blogs (about 120 now) much more quickly. People can, of course, link to whoever they want so more power to them. But I don’t see the point in getting bent out of shape over it.

    My $0.02.

  5. commissar wrote:

    “posts that required a few days to gather dozens of pertinent links in order to paint a larger picture than would be possible with only a link or two.”

    How about these 280+ links on Sabretooth’s front page?

    Real serious “pertinent links … painting a large picture.”

    Monday 11/21

    Linking to:

    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    bR1ght & Early
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Ch00se L1fe
    St0p the ACLU
    TMH’s Bac0n B1ts
    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Adam’s Bl0g
    MacStansbury
    D0n Surber
    Samantha Burns
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    N1F
    My0p1c Zeal
    th1rd w0rld c0unty
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway
    The Bus1ness 0f Amer1ca 1s Bus1ness!
    The Fl0r1da Mas0ch1st
    H0lly Ah0
    C0mm0n F0lk us1ng C0mm0n Sense

    Monday 11/21

    Linking to:

    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    bR1ght & Early
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Ch00se L1fe
    St0p the ACLU
    TMH’s Bac0n B1ts
    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Adam’s Bl0g
    MacStansbury
    D0n Surber
    Samantha Burns
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    N1F
    My0p1c Zeal
    th1rd w0rld c0unty
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway
    The Bus1ness 0f Amer1ca 1s Bus1ness!
    The Fl0r1da Mas0ch1st
    H0lly Ah0
    C0mm0n F0lk us1ng C0mm0n Sense

    Monday 11/21

    Yet an0ther 0pen TrackBack thread! Have fun!

    Linking to:

    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    bR1ght & Early
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Ch00se L1fe
    St0p the ACLU
    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Adam’s Bl0g
    MacStansbury
    D0n Surber
    Samantha Burns
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    N1F
    My0p1c Zeal
    th1rd w0rld c0unty
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway
    The Bus1ness 0f Amer1ca 1s Bus1ness!
    W1zbang!
    The Fl0r1da Mas0ch1st
    H0lly Ah0
    C0mm0n F0lk us1ng C0mm0n Sense

    Sunday 11/20

    Linking to:

    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    bR1ght & Early
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Ch00se L1fe
    St0p the ACLU
    TMH’s Bac0n B1ts
    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Adam’s Bl0g
    MacStansbury
    D0n Surber
    The C0nservat1ve Cat
    Samantha Burns
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    N1F
    My0p1c Zeal
    th1rd w0rld c0unty
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway
    The Bus1ness 0f Amer1ca 1s Bus1ness!
    W1zbang!
    The Fl0r1da Mas0ch1st
    H0lly Ah0
    C0mm0n F0lk us1ng C0mm0n Sense

    Saturday 11/19

    Linking to:

    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    bR1ght & Early
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Ch00se L1fe
    St0p the ACLU
    TMH’s Bac0n B1ts
    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Adam’s Bl0g
    MacStansbury
    D0n Surber
    The C0nservat1ve Cat
    Samantha Burns
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    N1F
    Rand0m Yak
    th1rd w0rld c0unty
    My0p1c Zeal
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway
    The Bus1ness 0f Amer1ca 1s Bus1ness!
    W1zbang!
    The Fl0r1da Mas0ch1st
    H0lly Ah0
    C0mm0n F0lk us1ng C0mm0n Sense
    The Blue State C0nservat1ves

    Friday 11/18

    Linking to:

    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    bR1ght & Early
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Ch00se L1fe
    St0p the ACLU
    TMH’s Bac0n B1ts
    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Adam’s Bl0g
    MacStansbury
    D0n Surber
    The C0nservat1ve Cat
    Samantha Burns
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    N1F
    Rand0m Yak
    th1rd w0rld c0unty
    The Bus1ness 0f Amer1ca 1s Bus1ness!
    My0p1c Zeal
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway

    again Friday 11/18

    Linking to:

    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    bR1ght & Early
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Ch00se L1fe
    St0p the ACLU
    TMH’s Bac0n B1ts
    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Adam’s Bl0g
    MacStansbury
    D0n Surber
    The C0nservat1ve Cat
    Samantha Burns
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    N1F
    Rand0m Yak
    th1rd w0rld c0unty
    The Bus1ness 0f Amer1ca 1s Bus1ness!
    My0p1c Zeal
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway

    Friday 0pen Tar P1t #4

    A round up of some current 0pen TrakBak posts today:

    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    bR1ght & Early
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Ch00se L1fe
    St0p the ACLU
    TMH’s Bac0n B1ts
    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Adam’s Bl0g
    MacStansbury
    D0n Surber
    The C0nservat1ve Cat
    Samantha Burns
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    N1F
    Rand0m Yak
    th1rd w0rld c0unty
    My0p1c Zeal
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway

    Have fun!

    Checking 1n…

    My0p1c Zeal:
    A Successful Exper1ment 1n Def1n1t10ns

    R1ghtFa1th:
    G0P Hyp0cr1sy B1rths Th1rd-Party 1n 2008

    G0p and the C1ty:
    A Sneak Attack

    th1rd w0rld c0unty:
    Fa1r tax-and 0pen P0st

    Stuck 0n Stup1d:
    Weekend Trackback Bl0gfest

    Ch00se L1fe:
    The K0men-Planned Parenth00d M0ney Mach1ne

    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns…
    ‘Freed0m Fr0m Rel1g10n’

    The P1nk Flam1ng0 Bar Gr1ll:
    Pre War 0pen S0urce 1ntell1gence Regard1ng Saddam’

    Anech01c R00m:
    1′m a f00k1n gen1us!

    1ndependent S0urces:
    S0lut10n T0 Cal1f0rn1a’s Revenue Pr0blems: G00gle Searches

    West V1rg1n1ans f0r a Republ1can Maj0r1ty:
    Real Pr0gress 1n 1raq: The S1gns 0f Freed0m & Dem0

    Stuck 0n Stup1d:
    Wh1n1ng Dem0crats: Put Up 0r Shut Up!

    Stuck 0n Stup1d:
    Ra1se Us $3,100.00

    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns…
    Pr1nce Charles- The Master 0f the 0bv10us

    Even1ngStar’s N0n-Bl0g:
    Kurt V0nnegut l0ses 1t

    Stuck 0n Stup1d:
    M1chelle H1ts Back

    Stuck 0n Stup1d:
    The True Mean1ng 0f Thanksg1v1ng

    The R1ght Nat10n:
    Sunday N1ght 0pen Trackback Carnage

    Thursday 11/17

    Linking to:

    Cal1f0rn1a C0nservat1ve
    Ca0’s Bl0g
    Euph0r1c Real1ty
    P01nt F1ve
    The P0l1t1cal Teen
    MacStansbury
    Bas1l’s Bl0g
    J0’s Cafe
    St0p the ACLU
    D0n Surber
    Adam’s Bl0g
    The C0nservat1ve Cat
    bR1ght & Early
    Stuck 0n Stup1d
    Samantha Burns
    B1G D0G’s WEBL0G
    Peakah’s Pr0v0cat10ns
    Ch00se L1fe
    My0p1c Zeal
    Everyman
    0uts1de the Beltway

  6. Sabertooth wrote:

    “I give out 15 links. You give out 1500. Mine would count 100 times as much.”

    Ah, you want an affirmative action program.

    You didn’t address why you think heavily referenced posts should be penalized in favor of posts with a single link.

  7. commissar wrote:

    Sabretooth,

    Dont barge into my blog and start babbling about “affirmation action programs” like you can wave some talisman of the right to score points.

    If you want to link hundreds of blogs every day in some link-fest circle-jerk, that’s fine. But if NZBear can figure out how to minimize your gaming of the Ecosystem, I’m all for it.

  8. Sabertooth wrote:

    “How about these 280+ links on Sabretooth’s front page?

    Real serious ,pertinent links … painting a large picture.’”

    I’ve already plead guilty to participating in open track backs.

    Here’s another post I pinged to open track back folks:

    Woodwardgate scorecard: Armitage is #1!

    There are about a hundred highly relevant links in that post before I got to the open track back links. Those 100 links took me Friday, Saturday, and part of Sunday to assemble and organize. They should count as much as one of yours?

  9. commissar wrote:

    Well, gee “I already pleaded guilty top participating in open track backs.”

    Fine. So now, because you and a bunch of other link whores got caught gaming NZBear’s system — which he has spent countless hours building and maintaining — now, there’s ******* problem. Because of YOU (not someone else, okay) YOU, there’s a whole pissing contest and NZBear has to do a whole ton of work.

    Instead of being a decent human being, and saying “Yeah, I ****** up, I appreciate NZBears’ efforts.” You are running all around launching petitions and trolling my blog, and making a goddam stink.

    You are acting like a spoiled child. Buzz off.

  10. Sabertooth wrote:

    Sorry If I’ve offended. I found your post tracked back to N.Z. Bear’s “Link ****” post, where he said:

    I’m debating; now you get to as well. Let me know what you think…

    That’s what I’m doing, debating, and I thought you were as well, since you linked to that post. If you want me off your blog, say the word.

  11. Sabertooth wrote:

    For the record, I’ve neither launched nor signed a petition.

  12. commissar wrote:

    NZ Bear has more patience than I do. You must not know that this horseshit comes up every year or two. Do a little background research, okay?

    And EVERY ******* TIME … EVERY ******* TIME … the offenders start howling about how abused they are, how “Unfair” NZ bear is, how terrible his Ecosystem is, how anyone who calls them on their horseshit is “mean” or “cant explain this or that quirk of the rules.”

    It’s not difficult to do the right thing. It really isn’t. Read some blogs and link to those you find interesting. Leave the 280 link fests behind and let it go. And send NZBear an email of apology and thanks.

  13. Sabertooth wrote:

    Okay, on the subject of background research, here’s what I’ve posted over at TTLB:

    I’m not saying there’s not a problem; I acknowledged at my blog, The Tar Pit, that I was sorry one of my open linkfests was a top ten post at TTLB this past week. But the solution so far, to filter out inline trackbacks, makes no distinction between open trackbacks and more relevant links. It also doesn’t address manually posted links from trackbacks, such as those of us on blogspot have been doing. So, the solution penalizes many links it shouldn’t, without fully addressing the problem.

    I think a better approach would be to get a consensus around some standards that could be self-policed by open track back participants. Most of us already do a fair amount of self-policing as it is, making sure that we’re not getting spammed by people who haven’t acutally linked to us and screening out inappropriate material.

    The algorithmic approach has appeal that outweighs its merits.

    Is this unreasonable? Have I called him unfair or terrible?

  14. commissar wrote:

    “background research”

    LOL I didnt mean background research into your own talking points.

    I meant into all the previous whining Ecosystem gamers who have come and gone.

    You’re merely this year’s model. SOS.

  15. Sabertooth wrote:

    Background is background. This morning I posted an open letter to N.Z. Bear, in which i said (emphasis added):

    There are other workarounds that would be simple to undertake that would defeat any filter that might be implemented, but I don’t want to describe them here, I want to to participate in a conversation and hopefully reach a consensus that assumes and ensures mutual good will among the various parties involved. If open trackbacks are determined not to be kosher for the Ecosystem, I won’t be doing any workarounds. But I wonder if subject-specific track back parties, blogbursts, blogswarms, carnivals, etc. won’t also be hindered because of the new open track back filter. Wouldn’t an honor system be a better way to go?

    I just think that the mechanical “solutions” being suggested so far will create problems that those suggesting them haven’t fully considered.

  16. Pixy Misa wrote:

    Carnivals have inherent value that will not be lost with this change.

    Trackback parties don’t have much value apart from gaming “the system”.

    I’ve been thinking about how I would handle this if I ran the ecosystem. Most of the munu blogs have the munu blogroll on the front page; that’s an instant 200 links. Should that really count as 200 links? One link? One link seems a bit harsh, as the munu bloggers really do actively read and refer to each other’s blogs. But they don’t all read and refer to all the other munu blogs; even I can’t keep up with that. I might use the square root of the number of links. If site A has 9 outgoing links, each counts as 1/3 of a link. If site B has 100 outgoing links, each counts as 1/10.

    I wouldn’t say that simply dividing by the number of links was wrong, but I’m not sure I’d take that approach myself.

  17. Pixy Misa wrote:

    I just think that the mechanical “solutions” being suggested so far will create problems that those suggesting them haven’t fully considered.

    Like… What?

    What you are doing is, as far as I can see, spam. Spam generates spam filters.

    Last night, working on the new spam filter system for munu (we get fifty to a hundred thousand trackbacks a day, and Movable Type collapsed under the strain), I formulated Pixy’s Law of Spam: Spam is whatever you get too much of. The way to recognise spam is not by any particular keyword or IP address, but by volume. If you get a huge number of trackbacks from one site, throw the whole lot away, because it’s spam.

    Exactly the same rule applies to links.

  18. Sadie wrote:

    My gawd that list of links is absolutely disgusting. When I’m up on my reading schedule, I read a LOT of blogs, and I haven’t heard of 2/3 of the blogs within the linkwhore list posted in the comments above. Of the ones that I have heard of, I must say that my view of them has degraded somewhat.

    What these bloggers have done is turned this whole practice into a very unhealthy obsession, AND I bet their traffic doesn’t reflect their boosted ecosystem status.

    Truly pathetic.

  19. Michael the Thumper wrote:

    This is funny.

    I count as friends many on both sides of this, and will pass on making a judgement.

    . . .

    . . .

    And EVERY ******* TIME … EVERY ******* TIME … the offenders start howling about how abused they are, how “Unfair” NZ bear is, how terrible his Ecosystem is, how anyone who calls them on their horseshit is “mean” or “cant explain this or that quirk of the rules.”

    I’d hate be on your wrong side when you actually “pass a judgment.” :>)

    Happy Thanksgiving, all.

  20. Michael the Thumper wrote:

    Dang, should have been “make a judgement.”

  21. commissar wrote:

    Michael,

    I can’t get away with anything, can I?

    One day I gotta write about “entry versus comment discontinuity.”

    Happy Thanksgiving.

  22. Ironbear wrote:

    Ah, cool. Good to see you back to metablogging, Commissar. Always enjoyed these peices. ;]

    The Ecosystem’s always been of academic interest to me only, even when I was blogging actively. I’ve never been convinced that “Number of Links” accurately reflected a blogs standing.

    Readership and returning readership has always seemed to me to be the best measure of “Best of the Blogs” syndrome, not links. Not sure how it could be best done… but a system that ranks according to Readers [hits, actual time spent on site, cliks on embedded links, per article views etc] and number of returning readers would give the best measure of how much impact a blog has.

    Of course, that’s an academic “I wish”: the Ecosystem is what we have. ;]

    *shrug* Color me in the “I don’t cares”. NZ has put a lot of effort into his system, and he maintains it for no apparent gain and to much apparent criticism. It ain’t perfect, but it works, and he’s to be commended for putting in the design work.
    Far as I’m concerned, he can redesign it as he pleases.

    Happy thanksgiving, everyone. ;)

  23. commissar wrote:

    IB,

    Thanks. Sometime I think I overdo it. Traffic is an important measure, maybe more important. But it’s measured there in the “Ecotraffic.”

    Number of incoming links reflect ths considered opinion of bloggers, shows which blogs they find worthile and linkable. Or sometimes it just counts up how many link have been mindlessly shoved, sausage-like into a clink-fest.

  24. Ironbear wrote:

    Don’t know about overdoing it. You’re one of a small handful of people who can make metablogging analysis interesting and entertaining, when you’re in top form. But it’s not a topic that one can really do exclusively, unless one is Doc Searles. ;)

    Yeah… kinda.

    At one point when I was blogging actively at Whotendsthefires, I made a study of the site-meter and various other hit-counter apps. I came to the conclusion that they weren’t terribly accurate or discriminating on measuring the time a reader spends on site, or the return visitors. I was planning to write up my notes and research on that in a meta-blogging post… and then I went on extended hiatus and never got back to it.

    Note: I have the same criticism on various site trackers on forumware [and I work as a forum admin]. PhpBB and others don’t [to the best of my ability to crosscheck it] accurately measure thread and post views vs post counts. “Number of reads” isn’t always number of reads. ;]

    Now… it may be possible that there really IS no accurate measure of that for the internet.

    Either way, screw it: It’s NZ’s system, he can set it up and modify it as he pleases.

  25. Ironbear wrote:

    I will make one observation: I don’t believe that blogrolls should count in the links categories for rankings. Only links in actual posts, and actual linkbacks from posts.

    A blogroll is just an online bookmarks folder.

    Heh. And my DailySpam! posts were often mindless, but they were never haphazardly shoved sausagelike into a clink-fest. I put a LOT of thought into that mindlessness, dammit! ;]p~

  26. Aaron's cc: wrote:

    “I give out 15 links. You give out 1500. Mine would count 100 times as much.”

    That’s easy to game, too. Someone will start a bunch of 1-post free blogs and link to their site.

    A Speculum’s View of TTLB Ecosystem Link Sluttage is my attempt at a solution. I look at the traffic and links of the top 100 blogs on the Ecosystem. It boils down to there should be Ecotraffic, Ecolinks and a separate Ecosystem which factors in both traffic AND inbound links. Blogs that don’t play nice with their Sitemeters so we can all be on the same playing field get penalized, averaged into the middle of the traffic pile.

    I could go for the exclusion of blogroll links.

    NZB is going to have a tough time not alienating the Carnivals and Communities he’s been tracking.

    There are also lots of blogs gaming the traffic ranking by having multiple sites referring to the same SiteMeter.

  27. Don Surber wrote:

    I highly recommend aaron’s take on this and I agree with the Commissar on this one.
    I shall continue to publicize my posts this way purely as PR
    IDGAF about my ranking by NZ Bear
    I am 813rd in Technorati’s ranking of unique links, which is how I would do things if I ran TTLB

  28. commissar wrote:

    aaron, don,

    I’m less concerned with the specific algorithm than the concept that links from blog with a large number of outgoing links should carry some less weight.

    The “1-post free blogs.” Sure, someone would try it. But such a game is labor-intensive by the gamer, and fairly easy to catch, if done on any significant scale.

    Re: aarons’ proposal — Any weighting of links by traffic turns the link-ranking into a traffic-ranking. All other things being equal, a link from Instapundit far outweighs a link from me. But as soon as you weight a ‘link system’ by traffic, all the big traffic guys (who tend to somewhat link to each other) would float even more to the top.

    As for ‘complicated,’ I’m not sure I could even figure yours out. But it’s early in the morning for me. :) No offense intended.

    As for excluding blogroll links and other possibilities, I defer to NZBear’s view of the programmin challenges of such a thing. It he can do it, it sounds positive. But I dont know if ‘blogroll links’ are programmatically identifiable. And (to talk out of the other side of my mouth) I can see leaving in Blogrolls — on their merits.

    If we’re talking simple, he could simply stop counting after a certain point. Say, 280 — just for number. NZB could count the first 280 outgoing links that his scan finds on a blog — posts, blogrolls, carnivals, whatever. That’s it. I’m not sure if this is a great idea, but their are plenty of ways to deal with the problem.

  29. commissar wrote:

    aaron,

    I thought a little more about “1-post free blogs.”

    Someone would have to set up 100 or 200 of such things to have a significant impact. Hah. Ya know what? If anyone was so obsessive, so hard-up for linkage that they put that much effort into it, … then I’d say “Let him have it.”

    From a strictly clinical perspective, don’t you agree that it might be dangerous to dis-allow such an obsessive the object of his desire? :)

    Ha ha ha.

  30. Ironbear wrote:

    *shrug* I’m probably just not that concerned with “The Ecosystem”, so I’ll leave it to ya’ll. Fight ‘em in the blogrolls, fight ‘em in the trackbacks, fight ‘em in the linkfests! Link ‘em all: Technorati will recognise ‘is own. ;)

    When I *do* go back to blogging full time - or if - I’ll probably do it with RFI, and since that’s pretty graphics community/CGi gossip column specific, I doubt seriously I’ll even register it with the Ecosystem. Even with my “Guns, Girls, Games, Blogcrap, and Political Idiocy” links in the DailySpam!, it’s just not general interest enough to garner much cross-blogdom traffic.

    I will add this to the discussion pot: you can drive yourself absolutely nutso chasing links and ratings, but at the end of the day - it’s wether you reach, grab, and keep readers that makes or breaks you. All the links and rankings in the Ecosystem don’t matter a jot if you only get one-time-visitors who don’t come back because yer content sucks.

    And while you’re busily fighting for links and recognition… you’re probably too busy to write stuff that you enjoy, and that’s worth coming back for. Rankings are cool, but… I come back to visit people like der Commissar, Kevin Baker, Porretto, Billy Beck, and The Gun Guy repeatedly because they have stuff there I want to read, not because of where they are at TTLB.

    But whattaIknow? I’m just a reader. ;)

  31. Rick Moran wrote:

    I have watched my TTLB ranking drop like a stone these last three weeks and was at a total loss as to why.

    Not really understanding how NZ Bear figures the rankings, I now realize that I have been gamed. At the same time though, the open tb posts that I have participated in - Wizbang and Mudville Gazette - was done solely to increase traffic to my site. The “tb parties” should continue if that is truly the object of the open posts.

    This “Open TB Alliance” is something I didn’t realize affected one’s rankings. It would seem fair to me that NZ Bear is going to exclude those posts from counting toward one’s ranking.

    As with all technical stuff, my head hurts from thinking about it. Please pass the Advil…